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Forum:Lucrezia and the Other
Two possibilities are that Lucrezia simply was the Other or that the Other is some sort of entity that somehow possessed her. Dr. Lucrezia and Mr. Other? Here's another theory, just for consideration. Lucrezia was completely sincere in her desire to change (she says she's determined to, and Klaus doesn't think she can -- she has too much of a dark side). Lucrezia figures out that Klaus might be right and she's finding it very hard to be good (or as good as she wants to be -- for the sake of her son and her next child on the way) and not try something bad. So what does she do? Mad science of course! She builds a sparky device to separate her evil side from her and transfer it into some kind of construct, possible Enigma. This makes perfect Spark sense. Want to be less evil? Build a de-evil-ification device. Problem solved. This backfires in some horrible way, and the Other is born, gets loose, blows Castle Heterodyne and kidnaps (the real) Lucrezia. This would explain why, 1. The Other does seem to be Lucrezia is some way. 2. But the Other's devices are more advanced than Lucrezia's ever were (her pure evil side might also be somehow sparkier or mechanically enhanced). 3. In Vrin's flashback, we see a clearly pregnant Lucrezia (pregnant with Agatha) and on "her" next visit we see a scary mechanical arm (which looks like Enigma's to me). We also know that the "Lucrezia" persona that gets zapped into Agatha's mind hasn't had a human body for a long time. So it looks like Lucrezia becomes a construct well before being copied into Anevka's body. 4. If Lucrezia-original and Lucrezia-Other-Enigma were two different versions of Lucrezia, this could explain the rebellion of Milvistle and some of the other Geisterdamen -- they accepted Lucrezia-original as the goddess, and the others were following (at this point) the Other. 5. We know from the Lucrezia-copied-into-Anevka's body incident that Lucrezia has machines that can "copy" personalities -- and has had them for a long time, since Sturmvoraus has had the machine for many years. Maybe the original device was the machine to transfer her evil part into someone/something else. 6. It isn't likely Bill and Barry and Klaus could all be so completely fooled by Lucrezia for so long and miss the extent of her evil, if she were always the Other. Even Klaus claims to "know how dark a side she has" but only *reluctantly* concludes that she was the Other after studying so many of the devices. So that's my guess. The Other is very advanced construct into which Lucrezia tried to transfer the evil side of her personality, and failed to realize how dangerous her purely evil side would be, not held in check by her good side. Kretzer 06:29, 9 April 2009 (UTC) :: That's pretty good. I posted a theory in another thread on the goals of the Othar where I guessed there were three Others; original Lucrezia, time traveling Agatha and Alternate Lucrezia. I could not figure out who Alternate Lucrezia was, but the Evil Side theory works pretty well. -Grumpy Celt 05:18, 12 June 2009 (UTC) :: Oh, that's a good theory. It takes the standard the-Other-is-some-possessing-entity theory and goes a step further by explaining where the possessing entity came from. There's not enough to exclude other possibilities yet, of course, but that theory is way cool. :: It's similar to wikipedia:Skin of Evil or wikipedia:Superman III. I wonder what the oldest story in literature is in which a character tries to cast out his dark side and the dark side causes trouble? Surely there's a Greek myth or something of similar age like that. --DryBrook 16:57, 12 June 2009 (UTC) :: It's what poor old Dr. Jekyll was trying to do when he accidentally created Mr. Hyde. --Kretzer :::Wow! It has been too long since I actually read The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde instead of watching one of its innumerable adaptations. I'd forgotten that Jekyll's goal had been to free the parts of his nature from each other. Now, I can't help but hear these words in Lucrezia's voice. --DryBrook 21:04, 12 June 2009 (UTC) ::: Three Theories of Otherdom :::: It was on the moral side, and in my own person, that I learned to recognise the thorough and primitive duality of man; I saw that, of the two natures that contended in the field of my consciousness, even if I could rightly be said to be either, it was only because I was radically both; and from an early date, even before the course of my scientific discoveries had begun to suggest the most naked possibility of such a miracle, I had learned to dwell with pleasure, as a beloved day-dream, on the thought of the separation of these elements. If each, I told myself, could but be housed in separate identities, life would be relieved of all that was unbearable; the unjust delivered from the aspirations might go his way, and remorse of his more upright twin; and the just could walk steadfastly and securely on his upward path, doing the good things in which he found his pleasure, and no longer exposed to disgrace and penitence by the hands of this extraneous evil. It was the curse of mankind that these incongruous fagots were thus bound together that in the agonised womb of consciousness, these polar twins should be continuously struggling. How, then, were they dissociated? ::::http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext92/hyde10.txt ::::I have never really believed the idea that the Other and Lucrezia were two separate entities. All the evidence points to Lucrezia always being an evil, manipulative, killer out for power. The only not so evil thing she did was not kill Klaus. The Other is just an alias she used during the war to keep others from knowing that she was behind it all. We know from Zola that Lucrezia and the Mongfish family in general had taken over the Knights of Jove and were running the Storm King conspiracy. Its even been implied that Lucrezia used some spark fueled genetic engineering to create Tarvek. All of this takes place long before she marries Bill Heterodyne. Also her control of the Geisterdamen seems to also predate her marriage to Bill.This leads me to think that Klaus was right when he said that her marriage to Bill was just part of her evil scheme. Klaus says that the Others tech is more advanced than Lucrezia’s was but lets not forget what happened after Klaus was shipped off. Lucrezia marries Bill and gains access to the Heterodyne libraries and labs. Access to this info could easily explain the jump in her tech. Also look at the attack on the Castle Heterodyne. The place was legendary for have impenetrable defenses but is attacked in a way that leaves it crippled for almost twenty years. Its damaged in a way that makes repairing it extremely difficult even for a Heterodyne. This screams of an inside job, of an enemy who knew the defenses intimately. The castle calls her a traitor and wants her dead. Lucrezia knew the value of an alias, of having her enemies not know who was really behind the war. This could be why she didn’t kill Klaus, she could have always planned to use him as a scapegoat. What she didn’t factor in was her daughter being rescued by Barry, being taken out of action for so long, Klaus returning so soon, and him taking over Europa. In any event I see Lucrezia as being and always having been evil. She has attacked everyone from her allies, to her family, to her own child. The Other is just an alias that Lucrezia used to keep her enemies confused. There is also the fact that the cast list on the main site says that Lucrezia is the Other. ::::--Non-logged-in user, 23:12, October 26, 2010 :::: :::: ::::No one disagrees that IN SOME SENSE Lucrezia is the Other. The question is in what sense. There are three basic theories: THEORY ONE: Lucrezia is simply the Other. "The Other" is nothing more than an alias for Lucrezia Mongfish. THEORY TWO: the Other is some sort of alien entity that has in some way possessed Lucrezia. THEORY THREE: the Other is some sort of PART or ASPECT of Lucrezia, separated from her into an independent entity by means of MAD SCIENCE, for example, her "evil side." I suggested Theory Three. You clearly hold Theory One. :::: ::::Problems I see with Theory One: :::: ::::1. The Heterodyne Boys' stories all present Lucrezia as being not entirely evil, or at the very least NOT INHUMANLY EVIL. She clearly seems to have feelings for Bill, for Klaus, and (presumably) for her son Klaus Barry (whom the Other killed) (she made Von Pinn to PROTECT Klaus Barry, remember). So, Theory One does not explain this seeming discrepancy between Lucrezia's behavior and the Other's behavior. ::::2. You could rescue Theory One by saying that all Lucrezia's (apparent) feelings were an elaborate act, and that she really was always an utterly evil sociopath, and never felt ANYTHING for Bill, for Klaus, and killed her own child without a second thought -- but that would mean that she FOOLED Klaus, Bill, and Barry for a long time. Is that really likely? They aren't fools. We have NO indication that the Heterodyne Boys ever believed the Other to be Lucrezia. Theory One would mean that Lucrezia would be a damn near perfect actress; and even though Klaus says she's a really good one, it's fairly clear she isn't THAT good: Tarvek and Zeetha and others have very little problem telling Lucrezia from Agatha. ::::3. That the Mongfish family had the Knights of Jove/Storm King conspiracy in place supports none of the theories. They were involved in the Long War, and this is an OLD plot, dating back (clearly) from before Tarvek was born (since he was genetically tinkered with / created ). This doesn't prove Theory One. This only proves that the Mongfishes were serious players in the Long War (but we already knew that). It actually seems to weaken Theory One a bit: The Other's attacks were TOTALLY DIFFERENT in nature. Why not just go ahead with the Storm King plan, since it's already in place? Why a radical change in M.O.? Theory Two and Theory Three can explain that; can Theory One? ::::4. Similarly the Geisterdamen. Lucrezia's relation to them doesn't seem to support any of the Theories. We know that she was originally a bad guy, a mad scientist more or less on the side of evil. Setting herself up as a goddess is hubristic, but not exactly evil per se. Sounds exactly like the sort of thing a bad guy mad scientist would do. ALL the sparks find or made minions of one sort or another. No doubt the Other USES the Geisterdamen. ::::5. The Castle calls her a traitor, but the Castle isn't all-knowing. It didn't even know about her secret lab, until she zapped its consciousness into Otilia's body. But this is, again, consistent with all three Theories. ::::6. A lot of your "evidence" for Theory One is question begging, because you just point out stuff that "Lucrezia" did starting from the attack on Castle Heterodyne and afterwards. But that doesn't support Theory One; all the evil stuff that the Other did would only be evidence that Lucrezia is the Other simply, if it is true that Lucrezia is the Other simply. So pointing out how evil the Other was/is isn't EVIDENCE that Lucrezia was always totally evil: the only way that it would be evidence is if Theory One is correct; you can't use it as proof of Theory One. ::::7. The biggest problem with Theory One that I see is Klaus Barry. Why would Lucrezia have a son, only to murder him a couple years later? We can assume as a matter of course that some Spark at some point has invented reliable birth control, so she didn't have to get pregnant and have a child if she didn't want. And if she wanted a daughter rather than a son, remember that Lucrezia is one of the BEST bio-tech Sparks around. I'm sure she could have achieved gender selection of her child (if you want to say she "accidentally" had a son). The most reasonable explanation I can see is that Lucrezia was simply in love with Bill and they wanted a family. And then SOMETHING HAPPENED to Lucrezia which resulted in her becoming/being possessed by/being replaced by the Other (i.e. Theory Two or Theory Three). Kretzer 14:57, March 11, 2011 (UTC) :::: ::::I support Theory Three. What if the Other is a commanding voice/manipulation technology? Lucretia could have done research on Heterodyning to create a powerful voice used by generations of Heterodynes to rally supporters to the back of them. This theory would explain some things in the comics: ::::Agatha's Locket, supressing Heterodyning in Agatha (probable manifestation of her Spark), could be used without modifications to suppress the Other. ::::The Other's contraptions and minions react to her Voice. (See: workings of the bugz.) The Other can be positively identified as herself by her low ranking minions as anyone or anything having a voice resembling closely Lucrezia's voice. (Lady Vrin had to struggle against an Anevka NOT posessed by the Other to disprove her. Anevka also reported that the voice ALONE worked on low-ranking priestesses.) ::::The Other can be suppressed by Heterodyning. (Bill & Agatha used this technology to break the Other's influence over them.) ::::The Voice can be passed on in genetics, personalities cannot. That's why Agatha has a "strong commanding voice" capable of similar effects than the Other, even while being herself. ::::The Other is not shown Heterodyning, even inside Agatha's body building sparky inventions. ::::But there are canon facts which prove the contrary: ::::The Other is only shown clearly identified having two distinct, inseparable parts. For one to be clearly identified as the Other, has to have the Voice AND Lucrezia's personality, altough we have the Other's "parts" separated, functioning. - Voice only: Anevka being herself,with Agatha's voice could boss around most geisterdamen. - Personality only: The Heterodyne impostor is now a shell for Lucrezia's personality, and she was acknowledged by Anevka-Other as being herself. Altough she is not shown, as far as I know - wielding the Other's powers. ::::The Other's is known to be suppressed briefly by Agatha's love. ::::The Other's is known to be suppressed in Agatha by sleeping. (If the Other falls asleep, Agatha can take over.) ::::The Other expressed, that she is not used to sleeping, so her corporeal bodies were most likely aliens or clanks. 11:42, April 25, 2011 (UTC) :::: Lucrezia and the Other Having read the above there is some stuff I'd like to add. According to the authors the explosion in the Castle was an accident. Barry's death therefore was probably an accident and not meant by Barry's mother. From the novel we understand that six months (and Agatha's birth?) passed before the Other War started in earnest. The questions *Did Lucrezia leave the castle directly after the explosion? **Or did she hole up in her secret lab for a while. ***If so how long? *When did Otilia's soul get transfered into Von Pinn? *When did the castle or part of the castle get transfered into Otilia's body? *How did it come to happen that Otilia was in Castle Heterodyne? **How long had she been in the castle? ***200 years?? *Who was responsible for the murder of her lab assistants? *Did the underground loving Geisterdamen have access to the castle from deep underground? Other things we know From Vrin's account Lucrezia arrived in Geister far along in her pregnancy and in a winter coat. We know from Krosps observation that the secret stairs to the secret lab go farther down still. When Lucrezia finally succeeded in possessing Agatha she was aware of Agatha's existence. Indeed she was aware that Agatha had been created as a vessel for Lu's reincarnation. She mistook Tarvek for his father Wilhelm and may not have known about Tarvek's birth. She did however remember Theo's christening and the gift of Mr. Hissyfit. *So when was the summoning engine uploaded with Lucrezia soul and memories? *Does the uploaded form have anyway of experiencing the world or is it just a backup library? *How can the backup memories be updated? **Does one have to be in a particular place? ***If so where? **Or can it updates be uploaded from other summoning engines? ***If so how? Speculation and Occam's scooter We have seen Lucrezia coldly consider killing Agatha from within while she is still in control. Apparently when she knows she can be summoned into other bodies the death of the particular one she is in does not matter unless there is a good reason like unshared information and experiences. That is the only leverage Agatha has over her mother at the moment. Of course we have never seen this work in practice so it might all be a untruth when push comes to shove as it were. We will ride Occam's scooter and assume it is true. Being an entity that is part of a "hive" seems to have lead to some inhuman conclusions on Lu's part. A particular existence makes no difference. Possibly also there is no need for any other sparks in the world unless they are all me too, darling. If there is more than one of me then there is usually room for one less. It is not necessary to be human all the time either. Lucrezia has excelled in experiments transferring the essence of one personality into the body of another. She knows this is not only possible but easy. This thought shapes her core being. *What does this make her? **The Other? **The Odder? **More than human? **Less than human? ***Definitely Other than human. That stated we also know she has a few fun loving human traits left. *Her ability to flirt with Tarvek. *Her care for others as long as they are herself. *The ability to get scared, angry, frustrated. Her desire to get even. "You will show them all!♥.' What makes Lucrezia different than other Sparks? There are two major differences in Lu's experience of the world, not just one, although it is rather clear that she did not have either one at some point. (It is unclear when she acquired each.) These are: 1) Her ability to transfer consciousnesses, including her own; and 2) Her ability to travel in space and time. What are the powers Lu has that no one else does? *She can transfer consciousnesses almost at will: **She put the mind of Otilia, a clank, into a construct body, creating Von Pinn. **She put a copy of Castle Heterodyne, a VERY complex 'clank', into the now-vacant body of Otilia. **She can transfer copies of her own mind into other humans -- but this process is neither complete nor irrevocable: ***Agatha's copy did not overwrite her own personality, and the Locket can surpress Lu-in-Agatha. Agatha is slowly gaining the power to overcome Lu by force of will, without exterior assistance, as well. ***Zola's copy also did not overwrite her own personality, due to still-mysterious preparations made to Zola's brain in foresight of Lu's potential return. **She can transfer copies of her own mind into clanks; specifically, Anevka Sturmvoraus Mk. II. *She can control constructs and creatures by biometric voice recognition: **All creations of a hive engine, including the warriors, the queen, the wasps, and the revenants, respond to her voice. Agatha's voice is close enough to also trigger this effect. **Other creations of Lu's also respond to her / Agatha's voice; von Pinn, for instance. **Geisterdamen priestesses also are responsive to Lu's voice, though with less effectiveness; Mistvistle is known to have disobeyed, and Vrin is capable of overriding Agatha's commands with sufficient willpower. *She can time travel to Geisterland, as well as bridge whatever separates Sparkverse Earth from Geisterland. **For all of known Geister history, Lu has been their goddess. This is evidently for much longer than Lu's lifetime. **Lu gave them "prophecies" regarding the "Holy Child" (presumably Agatha) and "The War of the Gods" (otherwise known as the Other War). Notably, there were no futher prophecies past this time. This implies that the time travel was accomplished from the time of the Other War -- otherwise, why not "predict" the banishment to Earth and how to find Agatha? It would have made things far easier for the Geisters. **Lu appeared in more than one "aspect", as Vrin finds it notable that she appeared in the "same lovely aspect" -- which is identical to Lu's original body -- frequently during her training. Some of the order of these developments can be deduced. Voice control was probably her first discovery, as both the Geisters and von Pinn have Voice control. Von Pinn predates the copying of the Castle as Otilia's body needed to be empty first. What can Lucrezia do with her space/time travel? We do not know if Lu's time travel to Geisterland is exactly the same as Agatha's time windows. Probably they are related, as in the time windows, a Geisterdame is seen and addresses Agatha as "Mistress". Gil is in Geisterdress and also calls Agatha 'Mistress', but with quotes to show he knows she's really not. It may be inferred that Agatha is pretending to be Lu-in-Agatha in order to access a time-travel device; it was probably Lu's to start with but may have been modified by Agatha, Gil, or someone else. We also do not know if the machine is in a Geister base on Sparkverse Earth or in Geisterland. Regardless, it is clear that this is the same machine used by Enigma to open the first window in Beetleburg. However, no one actually travels through any of these windows; the only effects transmitted are sights, sounds, and electrical discharges. Presumably, though, physical objects can pass through the windows; else why was Gil concerned about Bang's gun? The only other time travel known is from Othar's Journal, where a future Tarvek sends Othar back in time to avert a history where the Other successfully destroys Europa. However, this technology notably imprints Othar's mind on his past self, rather than sending him physically back through time. (Othar believes this to be due to insurmountable energy requirements.) This may or may not be the time travel method applied by Lucrezia, but cannot be the method to reach Geisterland: a pregnant body appeared in Geisterland, not an alternate Lu, and the Geisterdamen subsequently were physically transferred to Sparkverse Earth. Regardless, it is clear that Lucrezia has employed time travel. Prophecies do not normally work out just because, but prophecies made as a result of future information transmitted to the past often do. Therefore, Lu sent herself into the Geister past to prepare them as her army, making herself their "goddess" by means of both her Sparky powers and her time-travel-provided powers of prophecy. In addition, she prepped the Geisters to be her bolt-hole to hide during the pregnancy of the "Holy Child" -- which, per the Geisters, is Agatha. The very symbol of the Geister's goddess is a mother holding a child, which implies that'' the entire Geister religion, and thus much of Geister history and culture, exists for the purpose of furthering Lu's plans for Agatha''. Now that's evil mad science! What has all this to do with Lucrezia's nature as the Other? Notice, however, that through all of this I have spoken of Lucrezia and not the Other. This is deliberate. It is clear, as previous posters have stated, that the Other is somehow Lucrezia but that it does not appear to be the same Lucrezia that slept with, and banished, Klaus and subsequently married Bill. It is notable that only the hive engine products (wasps, soldiers, monsters, revenants, etc.) are truly evil products of Lu's. Time travel is a neutral technology, as is consciousness transferral. Voice recognition technology for your constructs isn't evil; it's only its combination with slaver wasps that makes it highly sinister. Even the Storm King Conspiracy isn't profoundly evil -- the Heterodyne Boys' adventures, while quite fun, were not a stable basis for a European peace as they depended solely on the Boys' team; without them, and with no inkling of the coming Pax Transylvania, the Storm King Conspiracy could be seen as a perfectly reasonable (if underhanded and twisted) way to combine popular acclaim, the Fifty Families' "recognized sovereignty", and Sparky powers into a legitimate government.'' On the other hand, the copies of Lucrezia we've met (Lu-in-Agatha, Lu-in-Anevka, and Lu-in-Zola) are all clearly evil, as is the entirety of revenant technology. Now, how did Lu, a bright Spark but nothing profoundly out of the ordinary, become the incredible force known as the Other? A clue is to be found in Klaus' observation that the Other's designs are similar to, ''but much more advanced than, Lu's. Lu was doing what were clearly the preliminary experiments on consciousness transferral in her secret lab under the Castle; she did NOT have this incredible ability to copy herself into anyone she pleased. Something is clearly up here. How did Lu get these powers? Well, she could: *copy herself into additional bodies (perhaps, initially, clones of herself) and then collaborate with herself, accelerating her research; *time travel discoveries back to herself, thus being able to use technologies now and work out how to build them later; or *most likely, once she was capable of it, both. An army of collaborating Lu's sending information back in time would be a most powerful and formidable system for Showing Them All, by stealing a march on all these piddly little Sparks working with a single brain and in linear time. It's clear that collaboration is not, in general, a Sparky forte. Most of the collaboration that's been evident so far has come about through romance and/or family connections. Both the Wulfenbach Empire and the Storm King Conspiracy have major internal tensions precisely because Sparks tend to plot against each other. Cycling the results of many copies of yourself through time loops is so much more efficient. The price for this efficiency is a normal experience of a human life. If you transcend both the normal time-stream and the experiences of a single body, you're not seeing life the way other humans do. It becomes incredibly tempting to devalue other humans; after all, you are so much more capable than even the average Spark. You also may be much OLDER -- not only in terms of collective experience, but also in terms of cycling through bodies and time loops. Some versions of Lu could theoretically be thousands of years old, either by body-surfing or repeated time-jumps into previous bodies. And all that is before you consider the possibility that the act of transferring consciousness may itself have a warping effect on personality. If even half of all this speculation is true, it's very little wonder that the Other acts inhuman at times and not at all like the Lucrezia that Klaus remembers. In fact, the shocking thing would be if Lucrezia's humanity remained intact after all that. Catfishncod 21:55, June 6, 2011 (UTC) Mechanical Hands Has anyone else noticed that on , which depicts Agatha walking through the market, there is a mysterious figure in a hat who appears to have a claw hand that looks incredibly similar to the one seen on and Lucrezia in ? Could it be Lucrezia herself? Joseline.hargrave (talk) 23:43, July 14, 2012 (UTC) Thinking Engine I just assumed that The Other was simply a clank or thinking engine with a copy of Lucrezia's mind. Lucrezia's original physical self built it, and perhaps ordered it to "take care of Europa for me," and then departed with Barry. This thinking engine, not Lucrezia's original physical self, is The Other. As a machine, it can think far faster than any human, but it's not a spark. It had all of the half-baked sparky ideas which Lucrezia had when she made it, and the engineering skills to make those ideas into reality, but cannot come up with new sparky ideas. --BenGoldberg (talk) 01:40, April 5, 2017 (UTC)